Alice's Adventures Above Ground

This is the transcript of an actual dialogue that occurred on a small town media board in the wake of the Chick-Fil-A brouhaha. It has been edited from the original 362 comments to present the perspective of one woman. All posts are verbatim, and all the names have been changed to protect anybody who might feel they need protecting. Note: There’s a surprise at the end.

Leeann, August 3, 2012 10:03 AM

Waiting now to see which restaurant or business comes out as “straight way,” encouraging and supporting all those who support man-woman marriage, the heterosexual union where children have both a man parent and a woman parent — mommy and daddy — not “two daddy’s, two mommies.” What confusion that must be to a growing child whose peers in school have “mommy-daddy” households…but their households are same-sex parents. I’m sure they are all loving — of themselves and their lifestyles — but what must their children go through as they progress into young adulthood? I have known one “child of gay parents” — this was in the ’60′s — as we got to know one another, her only question was “why did I have to have gay parents?” I’m sure there are many who are grateful for two loving parents, regardless of their sexual orientation. Life is hard enough for kids — I don’t know what the solution is.

I’ve observed the progression of acceptance of homosexuals in television as very subtle and effective — started out with Will and Grace — make it humorous — laugh a lot — becomes acceptable somehow if you can laugh at it. And the gay comedians — look at Ellen — love her, love her humor, accept her because she is so likeable! And all of the above are. But gay is still gay. Straight is still straight — how did each of us get this way? I don’t have any answers — I know both gay and straight couples — but I know there is only one frame of reference in which I believe — and that is scripture. But I also know whether or not we are heterosexuals or homosexuals or thieves, drunkards, addicts, liars, murderers or whatever is ugly and unforgiveable by the world’s standards, the God we believe in accepts us and declares us righteous in His eyes if we turn to Him. This is between each person, one individual, and God, not my business. Oh, my — think I’ve overspoken my beliefs for the forum. But I suppose if you stand for something, you fall for anything.

Leeann, August 5, 2012 8:56 AM

Somebody finally put “the name” on homosexuality. Sodomy. When I see homosexual couples fawning and smooching or fondling in public, my mind goes to their next step — particularly with men — and picturing what they do together is sickening and offensive. I suppose many men envision two women together as less offensive but I do not. Their sexual activity is totally unnatural — men and women gays can IN NO way engage in the sexual union God created for man and woman… so they find substitutes… Two men with their “equipment” and two women with theirs — pardon me, but they are lacking some basic equipment — something is missing here… (no pun intended… or was it?) so I suppose substitutions are their only recourse. Now don’t any of you lesbians write and claim what y’all do is as effective as the man-woman relationship… so work yourself to death… there is no substitute for the man-woman sexual union. And not to discriminate, don’t any of you gay men protest — it is what it is.

And along this subject, guess the advice “hate the sin, love the sinner” is appropriate.

Leeann, August 7, 2012 6:56 AM

Around 250 comments on this particular string of postings. No common ground achieved — lots of fodder for conflict so it goes on and on… it occurred to me (speaking about denominations somewhere in the posts) that if Jesus Christ came to town today, which church would he attend? Or which mosque or temple? He wouldn’t go to any of them. He would go to the parks and streets where the homeless are, the crack houses, the prostitutes, the bars, the homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, etc., the streets seeking out the sick and the lost. Well, that’s what he did in His day. All you people who are “well” don’t need him; all you have claim you have no sin aren’t interested. Difference is with us Christians is that we KNOW we are sinners saved only by God’s grace and will continue to be sinners in thought, word and deed, even though we are forgiven and seek to stay that way. And we serve Him with gratitude for the great salvation he God has provided for us — free. For those who claim they aren’t sinners, have no sin, etc. — well, enjoy what you have here in this life — that’s all you have. But if you haven’t considered where you are going to spend eternity, we suggest you take another look. And the beauty of this is that for anyone who is willing to through faith accept Christ and the new life, it’s a done deal — it’s an “inside job” which He perfects in His own timing. And it is so very personal a decision — only you can make it. Scripture says “some plant the seed, some come along and water it, but IT IS GOD WHO GIVES THE INCREASE.

All the rest of this stuff is somehow like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic — it’s going down anyway (the world as we know it)… just a matter of His timing. Nope, this ain’t Chicken Little… but I do know what The Book says and seems pretty clear to me.

Leeann, August 7, 2012 6:24 PM

There’s so much I don’t understand — one of my questions when I come into God’s Kingdom is “Hey, God, what were you thinking when you created the gays? Oh, you didn’t create them you say? You just permitted them in our midst? For what reason? Got any solutions? Surely, you love them, too…?”

Closing thought: Mercy is God not giving us what we deserve…

Grace is God giving us what we don’t deserve.

Leeann, August 7, 2012 6:41 PM

“START WITH VERY YOUNG CHILDREN.”

You will be shocked to know that the plan to train children to accept homosexuality extends all the way down to preschool! Activists acknowledge that children are more teachable if they are reached at this young and tender age. If you are taking your children to public day care, or to preschool, you must actively search out what they are teaching.

This is a quote from a great source of information on teaching homosexuality to children in public schools (search that out — “teaching homosexuality to children in public schools). If I had children in elementary school being taught this, we’d go to homeschooling.

Forget same-sex marriage — this is really horrible. I realize this is off-topic so won’t say anymore — but take a look at that article.

Leeann, August 7, 2012 8:38 PM

I was shocked at the angry post by some woman named Katie attacking me for my opinion that God didn’t create gays, but permitted them in our midst. She said, “Clearly you don’t understand how horrible your words are. I pray no gay child ever crosses your arrogant, cruel path. What a dreadful, dreadful message you send. For shame.”

That I would be unkind to any child (gay or straight) is unthinkable and if I recognized a gay child in my classroom, I’d have more love and compassion for that child than for the others more than likely… and something is wrong with that woman’s “take” if she supports educating elementary school-age children to gay life. How many children at that age will begin to wonder “maybe I’m gay” — or maybe I’ll try gay, it’s OK — that was another thing in the article — the new “war cry” for children is “Gay is OK”… Kids simply have no concept for such things unless you make them focus on it and learn about it. The gays are recruiting at a real early age, aren’t they?

Leeann, August 7, 2012 8:51 PM

Harry, I quote you from your last post about elementary kids being taught homosexuality: “To those who are gay, as an adult, you made your choice in life; to encourage a lifestyle like that to a 6 year old kid who has no idea of what sex and relationships are, nevermind, all I will say is those people who believe this is ok are some very sick perverted self richeous [sic] individuals, who are promoting their own lifestyle. No. Not going to buy anything anyone has to say about that one bit. You need your head examined and should be removed from society, before you destroy it…”

Got that, Katie? I just recognized from another of your posts recently that you are gay — that explains your venom toward my comments on this subject.

Leeann, August 7, 2012 9:04 PM

Katie — just realized you are the woman married to another woman — that accounts for the majority of your posts that are almost hostile on this Chick-fil-A stance on man-woman marriage. I would say you’re exhibiting “gay rage” — poor thing…

I wonder what would happen if Christians everywhere set aside a day of prayer strictly for the homosexuals everywhere, that God would lead them to His truth. Think I’ll start myself tomorrow morning. Katie, you’re top of the list.

Leeann, August 8, 2012 9:12 AM

Harry: “Not to mention, all it would take would be one radical teacher, going too far and crossing lines on this subject, to push the impressionable kids right into this direction; then the schoolyard would have kids curious about what they’ve learned, and the snowball starts its devastating march downhill.”

Harry, your insight is right on… In my daughter’s junior high class was a lesbian PE teacher –well, she definitely was very masculine. My 10-year old daughter came home one day talking about how men will hurt you — (???). The class had been learning self-defense tactics in Gym — teacher told her “women will never hurt you but if a man does, here’s what you do” (or something like that. What a crock of crap that was — until you have seen the damage lesbian women have done to their partners, you ain’t seen gory (I worked ER for years). I went immediately to the principal’s office. But my issue was that at a prepubertal [sic] state such as my daughter was, this was a dangerous statement to make, particularly because her father had been physically abusive.

There are many very subtle manipulations by gay people to the younger generation — how else can they justify themselves? The “2 mommies” thing was recently unmasked when the child of a wonderful christian family spoke of her friend at school with 2 mommies… “2 mommies need 2 daddies”… out of the mouths of babies comes truth… now that’s learning at home…

Leeann, August 8, 2012 9:31 AM

You asked where we get our information. We are proponents for education in public schools — just check “teaching homosexuality to children in public schools” — you will see the groups we lobby against. Look at the mandates for teaching homosexuality in public schools… you are living in a dark world if you think the gay agenda isn’t moving ahead — ust google gay agenda, google the above teaching gay to elementary children — just educate yourself if you really care about the future of our children and society. Guess you are another of the gay community who support the progression of gay life into mainstream society. Well, no rhetoric will prevent the progression of the gay community into our world — we must remember, we live in a fallen world — only Christians will understand that. We are only “spitting in the wind” as Solomon so aptly described, to try to sway Satan’s minions. Now I’m sorry I got ugly here. I started the “gayday prayer group” yesterday — just need to put you on the list. Now don’t you think you and your crowd could also have a special pray day for people like us who ascribe to God’s word through scripture? That perhaps God might change our minds to lead us into His truth?” That’s already been accomplished in the secular world. Nothing can change the minds of bible-believing Christians — except perhaps we might learn to love each gay person we meet. I can do that. Can you learn to love those of us who disagree with you?

Leeann, August 9, 2012 7:08 AM

Emily wrote, “No one is teaching sexual acts in school. Where do you come UP with this false, inflammatory stuff?”

Research it yourself. It’s on the gay agenda. READ, see what’s going on in the world of public education and the curricula for children which are being proposed and PUSHED by gay advocates. When the government enters into the ring to normalize sexual perversion… which it appears to be moving toward –well, guess that’s next. It wasn’t too many years ago that the American Psychiatric Association called homosexuality a mental illness, a sickness in body, mind and spirit. Of course, the powers that be got that changed. I don’t have answers. I don’t know what makes people gay… and why in God’s name it’s called “gay” I’ll never understand — in the old days it was “queer” which is now an ugly word.

Leeann, August 9, 2012 10:29 AM

I have just come to recognize that even with my Christian beliefs about sodomy — which is the physical manifestation of gays who love… I have never met a gay person I didn’t come to know and even love for their warmth, personality and also for their suffering … of course, even we heteros experience discrimination and suffering… but there’s something about sodomy we cannot reconcile with our beliefs.

Leeann, August 9, 2012 12:32 PM

Sharon: You are right — men are more aggressive than women; there is more domestic violence from men to women than vice versa.

My issue was that a butch lesbian could teach 8th-grade girls that women won’t hurt them but men will… and she never said where to hurt them in her self-defense class, only that men would hurt them and they didn’t have to worry about women hurting them.

She brought gender into the equation — as a teacher, teaching self-defense, it should have been gender neutral IMHO.

Leeann, August 9, 2012 2:11 PM

Two times now I’ve told folks to google (or Bing) “teaching homosexuality to children in public schools” — particular the mandate in California to do this. Search it out — there are dozens of sites to further your knowledge on this despicable plan. Also search “Homosexuals Brainwashing Our Children in Public Schools (elementary) — there are dozens of sites to further add to this subject if you are interested. There are even videotapes.

Leeann, August 9, 2012 2:34 PM

Grant: I posted how to find the orgs that are proponents of teaching homosexuality to children in school — I doubt seriously they will teach the “mechanics” of sodomy but the conditioning is to have children accept it as OK. We’ve found dozens of sites advocating this in public schools as early as elementary. If I had a child in elementary or even junior high now, I’d certainly want to know if this was part of the curriculum.

Particularly look up “gay agenda in public schools” — particularly enlightening on this subject.

Grant, August 9, 2012 5:13 PM

If what abhors you is organizations wanting tolerance of people that are different but still legal, then, Leeann, you’re on your own. Teaching people that there is a wide range of behaviors that may not be what the majority is doing, but are still legal, and you shouldn’t hate them merely for being different is far from brainwashing. Even teaching kids that the behavior is OK is not brainwashing.

I look at it this way. If I had a son that started reaching that magic age where he’s discovering his sexuality, but finds that he just doesn’t like girls the same way his friends do, I’d much rather he be in a society that isn’t outcasting people like him, but rather acknowledges him for what he is. Far too many kids that are different are cast out of their peer groups and then go and grab the family gun(s) and either take their own lives, or the ones that cast them out. If it’s a passing phase, I’d prefer my kid have a chance to outgrow it. If it’s not, I’d still hope he’d have a chance to be a productive member of society.

Leeann, August 9, 2012 6:08 PM

Grant, thank you for your post — so very well said. I, too, would hope and pray that should my grandson (now 11) be gay that he would be able to live in a safe place and become a productive member of society… and be able to go to school and be accepted. And believe me — I would be his fiercest advocate — probably end up being the President of PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)! And indeed, I’ve wondered about this possibility as I guess many parents do in this day and time. I, of course, do pray he would be spared the agonies that lifestyle carries with it — rejection, derision, discrimination, disease — by mainstream society. I find myself with great empathy for the suffering of gay folks in their struggle for acceptance. But it is what it is. Straights in all races suffer the same indignation in their lives from time to time. Again, thanks for personalizing it as you did.

However, your statement “Even teaching kids that the behavior is OK is not brainwashing” — I just can’t get my mind around that as acceptable. Too many years as a fundamentalist and I do not apologize for my faith. I am too steeped in scripture to agree that “gay is ok”… gay people are ok but sodomy is not ok. It is what it is. How does one separate the two? Never mind — that’s just rhetorical.

Emily, August 9, 2012 6:36 PM

If Texas teaches sex ed at all, they teach ONLY abstinence programs. Par for the course, Texas has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates. But, at your insistence, I looked up this law you seem so deathly afraid of. It’s actually an anti-bullying law. http://www.opencongress.org

Grant, August 9, 2012 8:24 PM

Leeann, what I meant is that saying something is OK isn’t the same as brainwashing. There’s a lot more to brainwashing than that. We tell kids all the time what’s OK, and we hope that at least some of them become their habits, but most that do only become habits after they’ve tried a bunch of other things first. Certainly, there’d be a lot fewer grey hairs amongst my parents, teachers, and other elders had I been brainwashed by their statements about what was OK and what was not OK. Of course, many of the things that are OK to do or to be are not orders or attempts to condition, but are just statements that if you do something, you probably won’t get in trouble or killed.

Katie, August 10, 2012 6:58 AM

Leeann, As insane as much of this thread was, I want to thank you for sticking with it and sharing your own journey toward better understanding. Your willingness to evolve your thinking, say so aloud, and then do something about it makes all the hullabaloo worthwhile, and on behalf of the millions of LGBT and other bullied kids in America, I thank you.

Emily, August 10, 2012 8:44 AM

I, too, want to thank Leeann and anyone else that may understand better that you can disapprove of something and not take it out on others. That your disapproval will not make something go away.

Leeann, August 10, 2012 9:18 AM

To Emily, Katie, Grant and all y’all who stuck with us… there is a progression in thought once the process of abreaction occurs — speaking aloud of the issues.

I had what I might call an epiphany this morning — thank you, God — I’d been seeking understanding. I am not a “lukewarm Christian” as scripture describes. My faith is such a gift I do not know where to begin –where it started, where I first came to believe — but lukewarm I’m not –

As I said, thanks to each of you for sharing your feelings about this subject, both negative and positive. As I ruminated (old cow chewing cud), I reflected on my life and those of my many folk through the years– and mostly on my own behaviors. If I have any final word (y’all heard that before?) — this day, I was led to believe that to each person God has granted life, He gives us free will to believe and to live as we choose — and as all of us will agree, there are consequences to our choices and decisions. Long after the facts/choices have been made, we each have to live with the consequences and even though He removes our guilt, the consequences remain — And there is nothing our loving Father will not forgive. I believe we can only pray for more understanding and to give Him our utmost gratitude for loving us –period – regardless. I do believe in His eyes, we are the reason He came in the form of Christ to teach us about love. So there are consequences — do you know anyone who has not suffered them? Accept with gratitude that He loves.. .there is nothing we can do other than reject Him that brings upon Him great grief.

Grant, August 10, 2012 10:01 AM

Leeann, thanks for keeping your disagreements civil. I really appreciate your willingness to avoid demonizing those of us you disagreed with. I’m glad you were willing to hear me out that regardless of whether we think that homosexuality is a sin, we need to realize that the only sins we’re really able to prevent are our own and ultimately our own sins are what we’ll sit in judgment for.

Leeann, August 10, 2012 3:54 PM

Katie, Emily and Grant — your kind words brought tears to my eyes. I’m really a pretty uncivil old gal but this subject began to take hold of me as I progressed to where I am today… it was a journey, for sure. Each of you helped me get here. Thanks so much.

Katie, August 10, 2012 5:49 PM

You just gave me chills, Leeann. You can’t imagine how huge this is to those of us who’ve lived 50+ years dodging bullets (metaphorically). I started a new job yesterday, and wonder when/how I’ll have to come out to my colleagues. Still, after all these years. You have, by your sharing, made that easier. I’d give you a hug if you were here. ;0)

Leeann, August 11, 2012 9:34 AM

Katie — and why should you feel you have to “come out” to new folk?

Your spirit is what they will come to know — and eventually,they might come to know whatever you want to tell them — but I truly believe that being yourself — without rancor will allow them to think “what a great gal is this”… and FROM there, comes such a great encouragement. So what? You have chosen a gay lifestyle. (Or been born into it, I don’t know)… Be yourself. In the presence of society, be a kind, loving and active person, remembering that “FACTS TO NOT CEASE TO EXIST BECAUSE THEY ARE IGNORED”…

One of my great friends woodburned this into a plaque… and since she died many years ago, she left her heart behind in this old piece of wood. I still have it nailed to a tree in our back yard.

Katie, August 11, 2012 5:58 AM

Thanks for your encouragement, Leeann.

As for “why” — Have you ever tried to go a day at work without mentioning your family?

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And so it goes…